The following is a discussion I had about Oilver Cromwell via an internet chess website. I can't remember exactly how it started but we were talking about Cromwell and at some point I criticised Cromwell for his anti-Catholic violence in Ireland.
CHRISTINE:
Yes, he was a bit of a hard bast**d at times but many versions of history are biased (either side) and not really helpful. Cromwell was an important part of quite radical parlimentary reform and introduced the First Protectorate Parliament; a damn good idea if it had worked properly. I think many people in history have done a lot of bad to achieve good. Richard Harris played Cromwell brilliantly and I often wonder why he took the role and what he thought about it, him being Irish. On that point many modern (Irish) historians are now rewriting history because quite a lot of it is in fact untrue or so badly distorted that it isn't helpful - History is what makes us who we are. A lot of historians are busy putting together accounts made from accounts of daily life etc written by the common man because these are often more reliable altho verbal accounts passed down through generations can also get distorted. Here's something to ponder: We get our identity from history, culture etc and in many cases what went on in the past makes us stronger; India for example believe their country was better off when part of the Commonwealth as do some ex USSR countries (tho we plebs don't often hear about this in these PC/apologetic days). When you think of the Scots which picture comes to mind?? A hunking great bloke in a kilt with muscles that put popeye to shame - an image of strength and power. What image comes to mind when we think of the Irish? Little folk, guinness and shamrock. Scotland is now quite a powerful and respected country in its own right, no longer the bee sting in England’s arse. Ireland hasn't moved on much, they are still very corrupt (seen as normal over there) and backward, living in the past to a big extent. Yes their economy has improved, thanks in part due to IRA supporting USA and MASSIVE handouts from the EU (and you should have heard the outrage over there when they had to start paying some money back) but the (accepted) black market economy cripples Ireland. They aren't really powerful, rather 'bought and paid for'. Christy Moore wrote a great song about Ireland prostituting itself, but the people don't care as long as the money keeps rolling in. What happens when it stops?? What have they got to fall back on? Strength? No. Bitterness and hatred of the English? Well that hasn't got them too far. The evil done throughout history does of course matter, but it’s past. People have a choice, learn and get stronger or wallow and stagnate. Perhaps my opinion is incorrect and arrogant but it’s an educated opinion, not just from Studies but from living in Ireland - I hated everyday of it for the whole 6 yrs. That's got nothing to do with Cromwell really, well apart from the fact that the Irish in some parts still tell their Kids that if they don't behave Cromwell will get them. That’s why I wonder what made Richard Harris play Cromwell and he played it so well. I have to finish, Aidan is getting fed-up (adults shouldn't talk to each other) and I'm getting way off track. We all have our historical heroes to be (really) proud of, but I bet they did things that weren't very nice.
MICHAEL:
You said a lot of interesting things that gave me much food for thought. I think to call Oliver Cromwell a bit of a hard bastard is quite an understatement, but that opinion comes from the little I have read of him and of course these sources of information might be strongly biased against him, like you stated. Being a Catholic of largely Irish ancestry it is hard for me to remain 100% objective in my view of Cromwell but nevertheless I can understand why Cromwell is such a hated figure in Ireland. The fact that he defended and even justified his soldier’s actions after they massacred thousands of innocent civilians and spared no quarter at the sieges of Wexford and Drogheda paints Cromwell as something of bloodthirsty, bigoted fanatic. Even historians who are sympathetic to Cromwell find it impossible to defend his actions against Catholics in Scotland and particularly Ireland. On the flip side I do agree that parliamentary reform was greatly needed during the reign of Charles I and I can admire his vision and actions in this regard. The question is, did he do more good than evil? I don’t really have any heroes myself but one man I do greatly admire for his integrity and courage is Saint Thomas More. However I’ve read that he approved of the burning of heretics. I am not sure if this is 100% true but it still sits very uncomfortably with me. So maybe you are right. As a Catholic I am proud of Thomas More but burning heretics is certainly not a very nice thing to do. You seem to have a very negative view of Ireland and the Irish people. My knowledge and experience of Ireland is fairly limited so I can’t counter your claims. If what you said is true then you are right regarding how they must let go of their bitterness and hatred of the English. Yes the Irish were invaded and persecuted for hundreds of years and this is bound to have a lasting effect, but for the good of their own collective souls and culture and economy there must be forgiveness and a willingness to build a better future for themselves through hard work and a positive attitude. I have met some lovely Irish people so please don’t tar them all with the same brush. By the way I am flattered that your image of a Scotsman is a ‘hunking great bloke in a kilt with muscles’. That fits my description perfectly!
CHRISTINE:
Good points, but I still have to wonder about how much of historical truth is all truth or 'all of the truth'. Must admit that I haven't read anything about Cromwell and Scotland. Irish versions of 'fact' are being questioned by their own historians, seems they often miss important details out, like 'contributing factors' - eg large bits of what went on before an event took place that may have helped spark things off etc I'm not defending the actions of the British either, what is done is done and neither you nor I can alter things that happened hundreds of years ago. History is fascinating but we do have to put aside personal feelings and try to be neutral (is that really possible, we're told it is). I just love History and, perhaps wrongly, don't think much about who won, who lost etc. Confucius says " Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall" -many, many unsung hero's around then. Yes the Irish are very bitter, the Welsh are to a lesser extent but the younger generations in Wales are more inclined to reject history and just get on with life, they think being part of a global community is 'far out'. I believe the same can be said about younger generations in south Ireland as well. My ex (Aidans father) is Irish, his father's family came from Scotland way back when and you ought to hear him putting people right about Ireland. No, he's no lover of British history either, tho he does have figures he admires greatly, he is just sick of the 'romantic' view of Ireland, which he tells everyone is total BS. What annoys me about them is they have to blame someone else for EVERYTHING, nothing is EVER down to them and this goes back donkey years. Some point in our lives each and every one of us has to take responsibility for our own actions, no matter out walk of life, status etc. We will all face Gods judgement one day, 'may as well get used to the fact before hand. My parents had loads of Scotish music when I was little, I grew up listening to 'Scotland the Brave' and such like, so I grew up with that vision/idea of Scotish people in mind (never say die image)and it forced respect. Scotland has many hero's that Britain (Eng) likes to brag about but only in the context of 'Britain' if you know what I mean, Eng doesn't tend to remember them as fondly!! Ha, ha.
MICHAEL:
MICHAEL:
I think we have to question all 'historical truth', even if it forces us to face unpleasant facts or change our romantic images of a certain historical person or event. I must admit that I got my information wrong about Cromwell and his persecution of Scottish Catholics. Cromwell did shed blood in Scotland but it was the result of some battles against Royalist Scots, which he won. Yes, there are contributing factors surrounding historical events. In Cromwell's case the contributing factors surrounding his massacre of Drogheda and Wexford was that he wanted revenge for the massacre of English and Scottish Protestants in Ireland before he arrived on the scene. This is indeed a contributing factor but I don't think an 'eye for an eye' mentality can justify or condone Cromwell's subsequent actions against innocent Irish Catholics. Regarding the Irish's mentality to life, I must bow to your superior experience. If what you say is true I hope that they can grow up and take responsibility for the direction of their lives and country. Like I said, I know some really nice Irish people, so that is my only comeback.
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